Lievito Madre - unable to triple in volume
Hi all, long time lurker here. I thought I'd finally reach out for advice, lest I roll up in a foetal position and cry :)
I created my first LM back in October from only flour and water. Since then Ive tried to obtain a healthy LM to tackle grandi lievitati. Since then i have tried free and piemontese maintenance methods, all without success. Ive learnt a lot (i think) in this time, however am struggling to get a LM that triples in size and has a nice gluten structure inside. Ive tried many different remedies, and consulted a few people (both paid and unpaid), all without major results.
My most recent issue was of a LM that was too lactic, the person helping me suggested leaving my LM at room temp until PH reached below 3.9. It took days and the LM smelt acidic and begun to turn grey. After refreshing the PM a couple of times @ 1:1:0.45 I managed to achieve a decent internal structure (4th march):
Gradually since then, my results have gotten worse again, all the while whilst achieving only double (at most ~2.3x) in volume. 7th march:
10th march:
12 march:
pH before each refreshment has been ~4.05 for the above photos.
Details of LM and maintenance:
- Flour: Currently Caputo Sacco Rosso or Manitoba (have also tried 5 stagioni manitoba). Flour choice is poor where i live (Australia). I am waiting for a Petra 6384 order to arrive, but its months away. I have been told by a paid mentor that her other students also have problems with yeast production in Caputo products.
- Water: San Felice mineral water
- Storage: Glass jar inside a Brod and Taylor temp controlled sourdough home
- Mixer: Kenwood Patisserie XL (using hook attachment)
- Method:
- Every 24hrs Refresh LM 1:1:0.43-45, storing at 16-18degrees C. Mix LM and laminate using a rolling pin, roll LM, cross cut on top. I use cold water and keep bowl / attachments kept in the fridge prior to refreshments to combat heat (its summer ATM). I aim to close the refreshment at 24degrees.
- Once a week warm maintenance for 4 hours at 28degrees C using the same 1:1:0.43-45
- pH Meter: Hanna Halo2, recently calibrated.
I should add that have read whatever i can find online in English and Italian. I however have not read any published books from Montanari etc (any recommendations here welcome also).
There seems to be a lot of conflicting advice out there, so i am hoping that anyone who has experienced similar difficulties can lend some words of wisdom. I have contemplated starting a new LM from scratch (this time fermenting raisins or similar, instead of just water and flour), but fear it would be too late - i want to at a Colomba for Easter.
Thanks to anyone who replies!
Have you tried making a panettone with your LM? I am no expert but am on the same path as you and I think your LM looks great. Whether it doubles or triples in size is a very subjective matter that I think even a lot of experienced grandi lievitati bakers can't determine precisely. I think 90% of the advice on the internet on LM is dogma and mysticism. I've spoken to Ian Lowe about this, I've spoken to an Italian baker who offers paid consultancy and both of them hold the same view. My suggestion would be to keep doing what you're doing, don't worry about the starter being too lactic or too acetic, i.e. don't worry about the fermentation quotient as it's outside of our control and start making attempts at dough production as that's where we as bakers need to make decisions that influence the process. I think that's the best test you can do. We've become too focused on trying to control everything, especially with the accessibility of pH meters.
With that said, if I had to make a recommendation based on what you're writing it would be to do warm feeds more often than once a week. At best try to do one cold (16-18*C, 1:1:0.45, 20ish hrs, pH 3.8-3.9) and one warm (28-30*C, 1:1:0.45, 3-4hrs, pH 4.0-4.2) per day. It is important that you don't overfeed your starter so make sure it has acidified before you do the warm feed. If that doesn't fit your schedule, try to maintain this schedule at least 2-3 times a week, especially the days before building the LM for production. Use your senses (smell and taste) and measure them up against your pH meter. And speaking of pH meter -- make sure you calibrate it often (every 2-3 days). I've noticed mine seems to drift showing me higher values than what my smell (rather acidic/vinegary at the end of the maintenance feed and lightly acidic with little smell at the end of the warm feed) and taste (sour with slightly sharp notes at the end of the maintenance and much lighter sour at the end of the warm feed) tell me the values should be. After calibrating with the pH 7.01 and 4.01 solutions the numbers start making more sense
I can tell from looking at your pictures there is too much acidity within your LM. Acidity doesn't just affect the fermentation it affects physically the ability of gluten. This is part of the the reason why tripling is important. It relates to the level of acidity. The LM will not triple in volume if the acidity is too high.
A too acidic LM is 99% of all issues.
A 1:2 refresh is the easiest way to dial down a persistent acid load.
LM = acidity management.
Coming back to this -- assuming the starter is indeed carrying an acidic load that is in excess of what is optimal, wouldn't the three warm feedings before production fix this? My understanding is that the main goals of the three refreshes is to reduce the acidic load and to get the bacteria and yeasts into growth mode which makes them more vigorous and at the same time makes the lactobacillus more susceptible to plasmolysis. By the way, I've seen recommendations for a 1:2:0.45 refresh as the first one of the cycle of three before primo mixing in cases where the starter hasn't had enough warm feeds in the past week. That might be an option worth exploring if a baker's schedule doesn't permit daily warm refreshes/
Each refresh will reduce the acidity but at a 1:1 ratio, assuming 50% hydration, this is a dilution of 2.5 times (40% inoculation). Even when repeated three times it may not be sufficient in reducing the acid load to the optimum level. If we assume that TTA increases at a fixed rate the question becomes does the rate of dilution outpace the rate at which TTA continues to increase.
If the starting point is highly acidic, it could take considerably more than 3 successive warm 4-hour refreshes before the acid load comes down to the desired level. It's easier to dilute the acidity with a larger feed however the populations of yeast and LAB are also diluted, and this reduces fermentation vigour. So then comes another question, does the rate at which the microbes multiply outpace the rate at which TTA increases.
A high acid load is an impediment to fermentation activity (for several reasons) and so fermentation progresses more rapidly when the acidity is low (low TTA). A refreshed (short and warm refresh) lievito could be similarly described as a young leaven and the frequent refreshments keep it young, meaning low acidity and not fully maximised microbial populations.
When the LM is left to mature overnight the populations are allowed to increase to higher levels as does the acidity. Beyond this point acidity continues to climb while the populations are hitting their ceiling. TTA also has a ceiling but at that point several corrective steps would be needed to get things back into shape.
The danger with a highly acidic LM comes when fermentation routines are followed without being aware of what is best for the LM. It can be common to fall into a rut of high acidity and poor activity since they promote each other.
P.S. if you do only 24hr maintenance feeds without warm ones inbetween, try 1.5x or 2x flour to LM. Especially if kept at 18*C as you can build an acid load as mwilson suggested. You might be able to get away with 1x at a lower temperature around 15*C but you need to do some tests.
Michael is right, your LM with the little round bubbles looks too acidic. And yes, you need warm refreshments to balance the cool ones, to keep the yeasts growing strongly. Maybe your mineral water is unfriendly to LM.
Up until a few weeks ago i was using rain water, as the tap water where i live is quite hard.
However since then I read that water for LM should have a decent mineral content - approx 250mg/L residuo fisso, / total dissolved solids - which rain water doesn't have (ie, troppo dolce / too soft)
Hence the switch to San Felice. I think it has helped, but who knows at this point xD
Thanks everyone and noted. I need to do more warm refreshments.
Today my LM had hardly any taste, and a faint vinegar smell. For context, I had stronger smells and tastes during the pictures posted previously.
I couple more questions if i may:
Apologies for any silly questions, i am still very much learning.
The too-lactic and too-acetic are descriptive qualifiers inclined to be judged by the baker, they are not exactly reflective of what is going on under-the-hood.
For every molecule of glucose (C6) consumed the main pathway of Hetero-lactic fermentation results in one molecule of lactic acid (C3), one molecule of CO2 (C1) and one molecule of either acetic acid (C2) or ethanol (C2).
C6 = C3 + C1 + C2
When the LM is too acidic, it will have a higher than optimal TTA and this will be primarily composed of lactic acid.
From experience I have noticed how a high acid load closes the door to acetic acid and a low acid load opens the door for acetic. Hence, I am noted to say that “lactic favours lactic”.
Another quirk is how a high acid load seems to inhibit the decrease in pH, which would seem counter intuitive to many, but I think many bakers that have experience with LM have noticed this also.
Do you have any measurements of the freshy mixed LM. I would aim to ensure that it never measures below 4.8.
I'd be wary of exact numbers when it is hard to establish what are the limitations of your measuring tool. (i.e your reading of 3.8 vs someone else's 3.8). Sure, as a relative measure for how you are tracking it is still useful. However, when the specifications and manual are largely silent on what is required for the meter to read correctly - treating a reading as exact can be a trap.
I raise this here as when a number of pH readers do require a minimum moisture content to read correctly, I would expect a reader that can operate at low moisture to say something to that effect in the spec or manual or outline the requirements for getting correct readings.
This is not about calibration, it's about what is required to get a correct reading...i.e. your tool can be fully calibrated, but not get a correct reading if what you are measuring is not within it's measuring specification - then give a correct reading when you measure something that is within spec.
Always be a little wary when technical data of technical tools is silent on a criteria.
Then why the strict tradition of a 1:0.5:1 feed?
I guess it would be good to judge whether it is strong if this feed can double in 3-4 hours but why the strict tradition when a higher ration feed will increase the pH level?
If one keeps a low hydration LM like starter and feeds it 1:2.5:5 would it be any less of a LM? Might even be stronger due to the bigger feed.
Beware "ricettedicaterina
Hi everyone,
Since my last post I have done a 1:1.5:0.43 refreshment at 16 degrees for ~24hrs to reduce acidity, followed by 2 days of 1 x warm then by 1 x cold refreshments.
Most recent hot/cold refreshments below:
LM after ~20hrs at 16degress had a pH of 4.12. Photo:
Post refreshment pH was 4.71.
LM after ~4.5hrs at 29degress had a pH of 4.26. Photo:
post refreshment pH was 4.90
Suggestions?
I can see a difference but it still looks too acidic / degraded as the pockets are small and lack definition. I would repeat the process a few times before considering if further action needs to be taken.
You store in water for the overnight (cold) maturation? Does the dough melt or is there any residue a the bottom of the container?
I would also consider tracking the pH of the water the dough floats in. If you are successfully removing acidity from the dough the amount leached to the water will lessen and the pH will creep up.
I am maintaining it free, not in water...should I consider a bagnetto now, or wait a few more days until I had a chance do more warm/cold cycles?
Ah, that explains a lot, especially the degraded look. I would not recommend this maintenance method, I find the Piemonte (water bath) or Milanese (bound) methods to be essential for the overnight maturation. With the "free" method, the importance of a bagnetto / lavaggio step becomes ever more important. As part of the typical process a bagnetto is done after every overnight (cold) fermentation as standard.
So indeed you should be carrying out the bagnetto step regularly.
From Massari:
1) si conserva la pasta acida in un panno ben legato.
Questo metodo mantiene it lievito a una acidità controllata con un tempo limitato di 12-20 ore di fermentazione.
2) lievitazione in mastello continua, cioè libera, senza mai legare it lievito.
Questo metodo consente velocità di lavorazione e assenza di scarti di lieviti, ma se l’operatore non è più che accorto e tecnicamente specializzato, il prodotto tende a inacidirsi, perché l'anidride carbonica continua a liberarsi, aumentando la produzione di acido acetico, di cui si impregna, fissando un sapore acido e sgradevole. Un altro inconveniente per questo metodo è che il lievito naturale ha la necessità di purificarsi attraverso uno stazionamento di 20 ore a 18 °C; con questo riposo si eleva la sua acidità e muoiono tutti quei batteri e lieviti competitivi negativi. Praticamente è come procurargli degli anticorpi.
3) altro metodo è quello utilizzato generalmente nel Piemonte e in Val d'Aosta.
Il lievito o pasta acida viene conservato in una bacinella di acqua fredda per le normali 12 ore di conservazione operativa. Il risultato tecnico di questo sistema è quasi uguale al secondo elencato e diminuisce in gran parte la produzione di acido lattico.
This is where anyone trying to look after a LM can go crazy. Morandin swears by water, others free, others bound. All proven to be able to produce great results.
I don't keep a LM so can't call myself knowledgeable by any means but you have some expert advice which seems to all point to your LM being too acidic.
Have you thought about giving it a bath? Don't think i've seen this idea mentioned yet.
Yep good point, I've been considering the bagnetto...I'll wait for advice on weather I should do it now vs later
I'm sure you're wisely waiting for more direction from Michael, but personally, I'd start adding in a bagnetto regularly if you decide to stick with free maintenance. I've made some good panettone using Caputo flour with free maintenance and a daily hot bagnetto (38C) each morning.
When using free maintenance, I always try to control acidity in some way each day. If I have time for higher-flour refreshment, I'll do that, but more often than not I use a hot bagnetto most of the time and add in the refreshments when my schedule allows. I have used free maintenance in the past without any of these corrective measures and my starter would slowly get less and less active.
Your previous post mentioned a few warm refreshments - e.g. 4.5 hours at 29C. Not sure what ratio you are using but if you are refreshing 1:1, then 4.5 hours at 29C seems like a long time in the heat, which could cause acidity issues. 4.5 hours is what I'd typically use for a 1:2 refreshment, which moves a bit more slowly than 1:1.
Maybe all you dedicated panettone bakers already know this link. I just found it. It talks a lot about corrective actions and diagnosing -
https://bake-street.com/en/how-to-make-the-3-preparatory-refreshments/
I have taken the advice and added regular warm refreshments to my routine, and also maintained my LM in water a couple of times. Photos below
Friday:
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PXL_20240322_133014914_copy_768x1020.jpg
Saturday:
PXL_20240323_091638112_copy_768x1020.jpg
PXL_20240323_092645567_copy_1020x768.jpg
PXL_20240323_132446939_copy_1020x768.jpg
Observations:
As always help is appreciated.
EDIT: I forgot to mention that I recently got my hands on a bag of Molino dallaGiovanna panettone flour, which I incorporated in over a few days.
I've proceded with my two refreshments today and also noted that following the warm refreshment the smell of the a LM has changed to an unpleasant smell. It's faint but definitely not the sweet alcoholic smell that LM should have..
Also, mixing the PM took noticeably longer today, it was stiff and difficult to handle compared to a week or so ago.
Last night I did a 1:2:0.45 ...It now appears as if my LM in water is too lactic, it's starting to melt on the bottom and the top that emerged has emerged is sticky to the touch.
From one extreme to another lol
Can you summarize your daily LM maintenance at the moment? Don't read too much into the looks of the LM. The alveolation is affected by the flour, hydration (even a few % points), shaping and gluten development (ie. how much you knead it). These are all factors which don't play an overly important role in the health of your yeasts and bacteria. Stick to a simple schedule and start attempting panettone. You will never know the health of your LM until you attempt to make something with it. pH, smell, taste, etc. are just guiding factors but are not knowitalls. Try to make a primo. If it triples in the specified time and doesn't acidify, you're good to go.
p.s. A simple schedule could be 20hrs 1:1:0.45 at 15-16C, then 1:1:0.45 3-4 hrs at 28-30C. On the days on which you do only maintenance feeds, you can go 1.5 parts flour. Same thing applies if you have higher maintenance temperatures -- say 18-19*C -- then you should do 1.5 or 2 parts flour.
My routine was 1:1:0.43-45 on a daily basis, with a few warm refreshments per week.
I tried a colomba this weekend and everything fell apart during the second impasto. The pH of the primo after tripling (it took 16hrs at 28degrees) was very low - 4.3.
I was advised that doing 1:1 every 24 hrs was making my LM too acidic. So I have just begun 1:1.5:0.43-45. Hopefully that helps.
So, you were refreshing 1:1:0.43-0.45 every day and letting the starter ferment for about 24 hours? I'm assuming at a low temp, like 16-18C? Are you still maintaining it "free"?
If that's the case, this sounds like what Michael was concerned about regarding free maintenance and its tendency to acidify the starter. Did you decide against the bagnetto? I thought that would've helped, but maybe it wasn't enough.
If I remember correctly when using free maintenance, I did increase the flour beyond 1:1, so maybe 1.5 will work better for you.
Sorry about your soupified secondo. I've lost count of how many times that has happened to me (though luckily not for a while now).
Hi!
Yes, it was 1:1:0.43-0.45 for ~24hrs at 16-18C, using free maintenance.
Re bagnetto, there is a lot of contrasting opinions on this. Some maestros say its essential every day, some insist its only necessary to correct something that has gone wrong (acidity) and that doing it often actually weakens the LM.
When I first started attempting to maintain a LM, I was strictly following the Morrandin / water maintenance method, which also insisted on daily bagnetto. I found that it took the strength right out of my LM.
We'll see how i go with 1:1.5
The other thing i have contemplated is starting from scratch. When I originally made this LM it was from only flour and water, no fermented fruits or anything like that. I recall from another thread you decided to start again - what are your thoughts on this?
I think starting over is a great experience - it reminds you of how the starter behaves at different points in the process, what the dough feels like, and you can see how it changes as it matures. It's a learning experience each time. As a solution to an imbalanced pasta madre, however, I would advise against it. Speaking from experience, you will inevitably wind up in a similar situation someday, with a PM that only doubles, and you still won't know how to fix it.
There's definitely a lot of conflicting information out there, and what works in one case doesn't always work in another, even if the PMs seemingly have the same symptoms. When my starter was only doubling and my second doughs were breaking, I did a few things to fix it and haven't had that problem since. In this case, I refreshed the LM 1:1 with as low a hydration as I could handle, and I would submerge it at about 16C for at least 24 hours or until I started to worry that I wouldn't be able to recover enough for the next build. The low hydration and temperature is an attempt to slow down the degradation of the PM so that fermentation can be extended.
I used the LM's alveolation and time-to-float as signals to measure its health. I've heard from a few sources that these kinds of signals are useless, and that might be true in an absolute sense, but at this point I know just by looking at my starter whether or not it's going to cause my second dough to break. So, I do think these signals can tell you something when compared to past refreshments and when comparing the final products.
Stick with it, keep experimenting, and keep testing it.
Thanks for your input. I asked the question more in regards to using a starter this time (as my current LM is only flour and water). I understand that repeating the same mistakes is likely.
Just woke up this morning and my PM has some decent growth.Not triple, but appears more than i would usually get.
Also planning to do a warm refreshment today. In light of my new ratios (1:1.5:0.43-45), should I be using the same for a warm refreshment? And how long should the warm refreshment last given the increased ratio?
thanks
Refreshment ratio probably depends a lot on how acidic your starter is. I've also heard that refreshments with less flour slightly favor the yeasts at the expense of carrying forward some of the acid load. I'm not sure how accurate that is, but something to keep in mind. I don't think 1:1.5 is a bad idea. As for how long, I would think maybe 4 - 4.5 hours?
I'm still working on the timing myself. I notice that sometimes my starter rises very quickly, other times it's slower to get started yet still rises to similar heights. The longer I leave it, the lower the pH will get, but the longer it's in the heat past its peak, the less activity I see in the following refreshment. Lately I've just been treating it like I would any other starter, refreshing it once it peaks but before it falls. I will say that one big mistake I made early on was leaving it in the heat for extended periods of time while waiting for more rise or a lower pH.
I aimed to contribute to this discussion earlier but as I began to write up a reply my thoughts expanded and expanded until I'm at the point of not knowing which way is up. So I'm drawing a line under it and posting the following thoughts:
I Agree, you might consider starting over and I second Joe’s thoughts on the matter.
The typical cycle of regeneration for lievito madre in hours per day i.e. [4+20] or [4+4+16] or [4+4+4+12] for example, is entered into after establishing a starter that peaks in 4-5 hours. To “peak” meaning it has risen to its maximum height and CO2 production has plateaued. This is easier to observe when using 50% hydration compared to a lower hydration. Also, one can apply the poke test to determine this. It is overwhelmingly important to not regenerate (feed) too early when establishing the yeast.
The timing of the typical regenerative steps makes sense when you consider the rate at which the acid load (TTA) increases. It develops relatively linearly as fermentation proceeds, obviously more rapidly at warmer temperatures. The time limited period of a refresh at a 1:1 ratio held at approx. 28C is around 4 hours. If held too long the TTA may return to or even exceed the level when the fermentation commenced.
Feeding 1:1 and letting the fermentation go beyond those limits will give you high acidity. Obviously, this situation should be avoided, an exception being when maximising the yeasts as would be done in the beginning when establishing its peak in 4-5 hours. Or another exception being to purposely extend the fermentation if the LM is deficient in lactic acid.
The overnight operational storage / cold maturation lasting 12-20 hours (max. 24 hours) necessitates extended fermentation, maximising the populations of yeast and bacteria. In this period acidity levels climb higher, and methods have been developed to moderate the development of acid within the dough, such as the Piemontese water bath method and the more traditional binding method. Further to that a bagnetto / lavaggio step helps to remove further acidity. Without using these fermentation modifying methods i.e. adopting the “free” / continuous fermentation method without a water bath, the dough will sour and degrade as TTA increases and acetic acid accumulates.
When there is an excessive acid load a change in the feed ratio is likely required. Personally, I prefer to adjust the ratio when doing a warm refresh, as everything happens more rapidly, especially the yeasts which are at their optimum temperature for growth. It is said that the yeasts grow more immediately while the bacteria take longer. I also favour 1:1 as a rule for the overnight maturation unless there are issues with a high acid load or I am planning to ferment for a long time. Even then, I would be reluctant to deviate from 1:1. In any case, I would aim to correct the acid load prior to that point by applying corrective measures during the warm refreshes.
Regarding the information and what may seem contradictory…
Each maestro has their own method, but all have the common goal to obtain a LM with the right properties. The key qualities being low acidity and high activity. In my mind LM resembles a starter that is about as close to a pure culture inoculation as one can get using natural means. The occurrence of fermentation byproducts are kept to a minimum in the starter culture offsetting flavour development and other characteristics to the processing of subsequent dough or doughs. Still, LM contributes qualities that improve dough strength and the initiation of alcoholic and lactic fermentation which then improve flavour, texture, and shelf-life.
I would say the bagnetto / lavaggio step is highly important, but also it can be skipped altogether. How can those two perspectives can be reconciled… Let’s eaxamine what the bagnetto does…
The dough pieces with a relatively large surface area are exposed to the surrounding water and while floating they are exposed to the air too. Lactic acid is very soluble and easily dissolves into the water. These floating pieces also allow volatile acetic acid to evaporate to some degree.
This bagnetto step becomes less important when using the water bath (Piemotese) method. Ezio Marinato omits its use and makes an adjustment that mimics the acid reduction that would result from the bagnetto by increasing the feed ratio with an extra 10% flour i.e. 100 parts mother dough to 110 parts flour (1:1.1). Currently this is also what I am doing.
Because the Piemontese method significantly limits the build up of lactic acidity within the dough it is generally not necessary to perform a bagnetto after the overnight maturation.
This commentary and warning that overuse of the bagnetto can weaken the LM is mostly misunderstood. When Italian Maestros talk of weak or strong they are referring particularly to the acidity aspect and to the power of the bacteria to acidify and these influences come through into dough strength. I see many continue to confuse this idea of weaking with losing leavening power. If however, the dough pieces have been degraded by excessive fermentation they can absorb too much water and this could help explain any observed diminished leavening power. The bagnetto is there to oxygenate the yeasts and give them vitality and remove some acidity. If the dough pieces have melted, they are less able to hold the yeast cells and coupled with any extra water absorption, the weight of the solid matter collected will be less. These factors combined will negatively impact the concentration of yeasts when preparing the refresh.
I believe the actual intended warning of weakening the LM is how this will then lead to a sour or acidic product. It is my understanding that we need the LM to consistently acidify, hence the targets of 4.1 and 3.8, as this moderates the influence of bacteria and prevents acidification in the primo impasto. Preventing acidification is about making the pH drop as fast as possible. This explains the preference of low ash flour and the high inoculum 1:1 ratio. Everything is geared toward shutting down the LAB as quickly as possible. At the same time too much acidity (high TTA) in the LM will be carried over into the subsequent impastos. A difficult balancing act perhaps but interestingly a higher hydration could help make this task easier…
With that in mind, Massari highlights the importance of developing lactic acidity for the reason that when applied correctly the binding method which promotes lactic acid, prevents souring in the primo. Lactic acidity moderates all aspects of fermentation in a similar manner to adding salt.
Massari says the release of CO2 augments acetic acid production. Technically both the so called “free” and “Piemontese” methods are forms of continuous leavening in which CO2 is continuously released. Only the bound method results in a retardation of the fermentation by trapping CO2 but Massari says its use is limited to a maximum of 20 hours and can be refreshed after just 12 hours of operational storage. However, both forms of continuous leavening; the Piemontese and free methods generally require a longer maturation time.
The Piemontese water bath method allows for the developing lactic acidity to migrate out of the dough and into the surrounding water. This method also keeps the LM perfectly oxygenated.
Method
Anaerobic
Aerobic
Acid modulation
Oxygen
Continuous leavening
Legata
X
-
X
Delayed
-
Bagno d’acqua
-
X
X
Regulated
X
Libera
-
~
-
Limited
X
I have never tried making panettone, but starter maintenance and properties are always interesting to know about. Could you expound a little more on the above? I understand the difference between pH and TTA, but I don't quite get the purpose of getting to a pH at or below 4.1 as quickly as possibly. Is it that pH values in that range are low enough to inhibit the LAB, and getting there quickly reduces the total production of acid compared with getting there more slowly?
TomP
Yes exactly, I think you understand my reasoning. As you say the total acid production is likely to be increased the longer it takes for the pH drop because the LAB are growing faster. The optimum growth for F. sanfranciscensis (the most likely inhabitant of a LM starter) is around pH 5-5.5 and growth can cease at around pH 3.8-4. A descending pH level between those points means growth of this LAB is negatively impacted as it reaches its cessation point.
However, with successive warm refreshes the population density of LAB increases (based on data provided by TTC and other sources) and their ability to acidify the environment increases but conversely this makes them less able to produce further total acid in the restricted time frame where the pH drops most rapidly.
Verifying the above idea, I have mentioned before how the binding method increases the rate at which acidification occurs by trapping CO2 which retains and concentrates carbonic acid with increasing pressure thus decreasing the pH more rapidly. The carbonic acid supplants lactic as part of the total acid production for a limited time.
It sounds like the increased rate of pH drop you mention happens while the LM is bound, or does that carry over to warm refreshments as well?
When using King Arthur Bread Flour for my LM, which I now use exclusively, I feel like my starter hits all of the right organoleptic goals, but never really acidifies below 4.3 during warm refreshments. The LM can come out of water maintenance anywhere 3.8 - 4.1 and reliably lands right around 4.3 after the warm refreshments. In fact, this is what my original problem was with my LM and why I joined this site for help - I would leave the LM in the heat for extended periods, waiting for the pH to drop (it never did), thereby accumulating too much acid in the LM and leaving me with panettone porridge for a second dough.
I haven't tried binding this LM though - definitely something I should explore. I'm not necessarily chasing 4.1, and I think you've mentioned in the past that some maestros use their LM as high as 4.5, but I can't shake the "what if" about it. If I see something I don't like in my panettone, I always come back to the LM pH being a little high and the primo pH being a little (or sometimes more than a little) low.
I'm also wondering if the acidification rate is a good proxy for LM health. For instance, maybe it doesn't reach pH 4.1 but does acidify by a certain amount during warm refreshments, indicating it's ready for use.
Hi,
For maintenance, I do about 7 to 8 hours on a warm refreshment (about 83F or 28C), then 16 hours on a cool one (66F). That is, if my LM is performing well. These are either 1:1:.43 or 1:1.5:43, depending on the activity.
If I have just removed it from longer term storage, I first do a bagnetto to cut retained acid, then a 24 hour refreshment at moderate temperature, to gently start repopulation of the LM.
Hi Sue,
I am assuming you use 1:1.5:0.43 for warm maintenance and 1:1:0.43 cool one?
When in a warm maintenance mode do you still keep LM for 7-8 hours irregardless if it triples in shorter time, say 4 hours?
Just recently took me about a week to revive my LM after being bound and stored away in the fridge (4-5 C) for 4 weeks. Initially I had my doubts since it was very sluggish and it would barely double in 4 hours. But then I used warm bagnetto (38C) and extended time for warm refreshment (1:1.5:0.43) from 4 to 7-8 hours (pH 4.0 at the end of cycle). From there on LM got a new life and now it triples in 4 hours (pH 4.2).
When you switch to "production mode" what feeding ratios do you use for 3 refreshments prior to making primo?
In my case depending on pH reading after 16h cool storage the first feeding is 1:1.3 to 1:1.5 with subsequent two feedings 1:1 to 1:0.8 depending on each pH reading after refreshment. I am targeting 4.1 at the end of 3rd refreshment.
Thanks,
G
When my LM is doing very well, I feed it at a slightly higher ratio than when it is just out of storage. There are more organisms, and they can eat more. Like anything else, they can be overfed or underfed. In the past I believe I have sometimes underfed the LM, by either using the wrong flour, or by too many wet storage feedings, or by not feeding sufficient amounts of flour.
It is hard to prescribe an exact feeding ratio/schedule for LM success; a number of very good panettone bakers including Al Bernardi have acknowledged this. We can follow general patterns that work for others, but our mileage may vary. There are people who only refresh once a day and hold it at 16C or 18C, and get good results. More commonly, twice per day feedings alternating warm/cool seem to have positive results.
Tripling is not a gating factor for my feedings, like it is for a panettone first dough. The LM becomes much more active with subsequent feedings, the texture will be better as it improves, and it will start to climb the almost vertical walls of the plastic box I store it in, leaving space underneath it. For me, this is a good sign that it is ready to use. I will say however, that my LM has improved a lot, and for the last two rounds of baking, it got to this state after only a couple of feedings.
Your numbers sound good, maybe better than mine! I almost never hit 4.1 after the third refreshment, 4.2 is much more common for me....
regards, Sue
Alveolation and % volume increase, at least from my experience, vary a lot from the hydration, flour and amount of dough development of the LM. If you're feeding a small amount of starter (say 40-50g), a 2g change of the water quantity is 5% hydration change. Obviously this is something that can be easily messed up. I've noticed that with my particular flour and my particular starter, if I drop the hydration to below 45% the max I see is double. But this doesn't mean that the starter is in a bad condition, it just means that the dough is too stiff for it to expand. It is also too stiff for me to knead effectively which also decreased the volume potential. And this is mostly valid if I keep the starter in free maintenance (which is the only maintenance I use) and the upper portion is exposed to the air so it dries out. If I put it in a jar with a lid, it expands more as it doesn't dry out. And it is only logical that the internal alveolation changes as well. The more it can expand outwardly, the more elongated the alveoli become, etc. If you change the maintenance method (bound, water, etc.) this will change how the starter looks and behaves physically but there I don't know of any evidence that it changes the microbiome in a significant way.
Again, these are only observations from my experience and having talked to a few long time grandi lievitati bakers. As I remember someone saying, if your starter has alveolations of a particular type this is a sure sign that it's in good shape but if it doesn't have them, it's not a definite sign that it's in a bad shape as there is a myriad of reasons it can look different and only a handful of them are actually related to the starter's health.
After a week or so of 1:1.5:0.43-45 there has not been much change. (Still one refresh a day, with warm refreshments mixed in at least 2 times a week)
I've now started 1:2:0.43-45 for the past couple of days... I'll give it a week and see if any improvement. If not, I'll start to incorporate daily bagnetto or water maintenance.
Picture of today's refresh: