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Double Fermentation method: troubleshooting, please?

FamilyG's picture
FamilyG

Double Fermentation method: troubleshooting, please?

Hi, I'm new to this forum but have been following you for a long while and learned so much thanks to all of you!!!

I would be very grateful if you could help me understand why my crumb is so tight and dense. Here are the specs:

I followed the Double Fermentation method from the Sourdough Journey:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDOfIAgyCy8&t=4s

77% Hydration

25% Whole Wheat flour / 75% Bread Flour Robin Hood

16% Levain 100% Whole Wheat

1 h autolyse / total 3h BF at 28C (Weather quite hot and humid) with 2 S&F and 2 Coil folds

Fridge for 20h

1h30 at RT then preshape - Rest 30mn - Shape and back to fridge in banneton for 12h

Baked in DO at 230C for 45mn with lid on, then 15mn at 200C no lid, then 10mn out of DO oven turned off.

Is it a bit overproofed? Over-hydrated? Other issue you can spot?

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated!

tpassin's picture
tpassin

First off, those are fine looking loaves.  Even if the crumb is a little less open than you were going for, don't be discouraged.

They are not overproofed and not over-hydrated, definitely not. Generally speaking, I've noticed that people who like to get more open and irregular crumbs tend to use shorter bulk fermentations.  I also noticed that for your bake, you had a longer bulk ferment at a higher temperature than what is shown in the video you linked to.

So I would say to get the dough into the refrigerator sooner, maybe even an hour sooner, for the bulk ferment.  You could also leave the shaped loaves on the counter for longer before retarding them.

With a shorter time at room temperature, will you have time for all the S&Fs (I consider all kinds of S&Fs including coil folds to be more or less equivalent)? That depends on the dough and how it responds.  As I'm sure you have noticed, between the stretches the dough relaxes. You can reduce the time between as long as the dough has relaxed enough to be stretched again.  Or you can leave off the last one.  If the dough seems too extensible at preshape time, you can add more stretching and folding then.

TomP

FamilyG's picture
FamilyG

Thank you for your 2 cents, TomP! 

I think I could easily shorten the time between each S&F as I've noticed that the dough relaxes very quickly between each stretch.

I am not sure I understand why a shorter BF or a longer bench rest would lead to a less dense crumb: could you give me some explanation about that? Thanks in advance for your help!

tpassin's picture
tpassin

There are two aspects to the openness of the crumb. One is how expanded the loaf is.  You can have a very airy, open crumb with all the cavities small and even in size.  At first glance you might think that the crumb is dense but it is not.

Or you can have many cavities that are visible large and irregular in size.  I've seen many pictures where the crumb looks like that but it's actually quite dense between large openings.  Very often those kinds of openings are the result of shaping techniques needing improvement.

Or you can have crumbs anywhere in between.  The very best of these very open crumbs show a distinct, lacy network - see the lead picture on this blog post:

https://newsletter.wordloaf.org/p/the-biggest-secret-that-is-not-secret

I don't think the loaves in the video you linked to have achieved that degree of open crumb (and neither have I).

So, about shorter bulk ferments.  I don't positively know; I have to speculate. Let's imagine going to the other extreme.  You bulk ferment for way too long, though not so long that the dough collapses.  Most of the yeast nutrition will have been used up and the gluten may have relaxed too much, or even have started to degrade.  When you go to shape and bake, there won't be much vigor left to expand during baking.  You might end up with a good loaf volume but you won't be seeing many larger cavities, and your scores will have opened only a little.

Obviously your loaves aren't anywhere close to that extreme.  But you can see there's a spectrum.  Larger cavities are easier to expand than small ones (it takes less pressure), so early on there should be a larger portion of visibly larger cavities.  Early into the bulk ferment, but of course after it has started to visibly rise, the rate of gas production will be large and that gas pressure can support a larger, more fragile dough structure. There is simply more reserve oomph in the dough.  During the bake, this active dough will generate more lift during the first part of baking.  A larger percentage of rise during baking should, it seems to me, have the potential for creating a more irregular set of openings, which is what you are thinking about.

Or too simplify the picture, you develop the gluten and do stretch and folds to create a scaffold.  The fermentation fills the scaffolding to proved size and rigidity.  It's like filling a football with air.  The pressurized air provides the rigidity.  The gluten scaffold provides the basic structure and the gooey starch traps the gas.  Once that's all in place, you can move ahead with shaping and baking.

At this point I hope that someone else who knows a more definitive answer will chime in.

So why would anyone go for a long bulk ferment?  Partly because that's what most of us have been taught to do, so we're used it.  Partly because some of us like a finer-textured crumb for most of our breads (I'm one of those).  And in part because the longer the fermentation, the better the taste (that's me, too).

FamilyG's picture
FamilyG

Thank you so much for such a detailed reply, It's really appreciated! I will take a bit of time to read thoroughly the article you linked and might be back a bit later with even more questions!

Davey1's picture
Davey1

If you want bigger holes - let them get bigger - simple really. Enjoy!

FamilyG's picture
FamilyG

At what stage, then?

tpassin's picture
tpassin

"Let them get bigger".  It doesn't usually work like that for me. Longer ferments and proofs usually end up with a finer, more even crumb (yes, well expanded, see my comment above). There's more to it than that.

Davey1's picture
Davey1

Something is wrong. Personally - I don't like big holes - but that's me. Enjoy!

FamilyG's picture
FamilyG

My goal is not to have big holes, just something a bit less dense, as right now it seems like overall something is not quite right.

Davey1's picture
Davey1

It's fine. But if you want to play with it - go right ahead. Enjoy!

Davey1's picture
Davey1

One would think right before baking. Enjoy!

Abe's picture
Abe

Produces a nice crumb. Also, as others have said, shorten the bulk ferment and increase the final proof. 

FamilyG's picture
FamilyG

Thanks!!