The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Pain de mie modification

loaflove's picture
loaflove

Pain de mie modification

This blog entry is more of a diary for me to keep track of my bakes . This morning I woke up feeling adventurous and inspired by Benito's psychedelic swirly loaf and decided to modify my pain de mie recipe which i had great success with the one and only time I tried it.   Now this is an IDY formula from Betty Hung's  French Pastry 101 book.  She is the owner of a french patisserie in Vancouver.  I also was motivated by wanting to use up some leftover red bean soup and matcha powder nearing its BBD..  so I decided  to make a red bean matcha swirl pain de mie.  I cooked down the red bean soup and mashed the beans until not many whole beans were left.  That left me with a paste when it cooled down.  My next problem was how to incorporate the matcha powder into half of the dough.  After kneading with the KA mixer i removed half the dough and tried to hand knead about one tablespoon of matcha into the other half of the dough, a task that i found very difficult as the powder wasn't incorporating nicely to give me a homogeneous green dough.  i added a bit of water and machine kneaded it  but ended up with more of a marble green and white dough rather than a nice solid green.  I didn't want to over knead so I left it as it was.  After the both doughs doubled in volume i sandwiched the red bean paste between the green marble and white dough and rolled it up, placed into pullman to rise for one hour or so.  Just waiting for it to rise now then I will bake it! Be right back after these messages.

Hi i'm back. Yikes i  proofed in oven using proof setting and dough reached its height in 45 min.  i need time to preheat oven and by that time the dough hit the lid of the pan.  hope it'll be ok , oven temp acting funny.  anyway timed for a 40 min bake. supp to be at 375.   will rotate half way thru.  will prob add extra time due to the moisture from the red bean paste may need more time. yikes i forgot to rotate the pan half way thru the 40 min bake.  rotated with 8 min left. i added 5 min to bake. I love the consistency of using a pullman pan but the loaf seems to have sunken a bit with cooling   hope it's ok. 

Now for the taste.  It tasted good toasted with butter but i don't taste much red bean or matcha.  I'll have to put a thicker layer of red bean next time.  i forgot to note that i subbed 5% with WW and used APF instead of bread flour as stated in formula.  I'm really happy with the crumb. You can't beat the predictability and the consistency of commercial yeast i have to admit. 

Comments

loaflove's picture
loaflove

Can't wait to see the crumb. fingers crossed.  temp was about 205.  also forgot to mention that i sub 5% WW and used apf instead of breadflour as stated in the formula.  

Benito's picture
Benito

Adding the matcha, like making matcha tea, is much easier if you make a paste first by adding a small amount of water to the matcha powder.  Then whisk until it is dissolved then adding the rest of the water.  As a paste it is easier to add to the dough.

I’ve had my pullman loaves sink in on the sides as well. To avoid that, after baking, I take them out of the pan and then give them 5 mins more of bake time freestanding in the oven to crisp and firm up the sides.

Benny

loaflove's picture
loaflove

Thanks for the tips  Benny.  So after the prescribed amount of kneading time I separated the dough.    Is there any danger of over kneading while trying to incorporate the matcha? 

this is a separate sd question.  If we are watching the dough and not the time and maybe not even the temperature, can’t we use weak starter and wait out the bulk ferment? 

Benito's picture
Benito

I suppose it is theoretically possible, you can oxidize the dough and reduce the flavour.  But that would be quite a bit of machine mixing and if you knead until the colour looks even and then stop, I think you’ll be fine.

The worry I have about a weak starter, and this has happened to me, is that if your starter is weak because the microbes aren’t in balance and there aren’t enough yeast, then the dough may become too acidic and become proteolytic and start to breakdown.  This is different from using less starter and just waiting longer or going with a lower temperature and waiting it out.  It’s always better to have a healthy starter than use a weak one. It is much harder to make good SD with a weak starter, trust me, I’ve had problems with it.

Benny

loaflove's picture
loaflove

Thanks for that.  I knew there had to be a problem with using weak starter but i didn't know what.   I would never do it on purpose though.  Remember Abe used a tip of a teaspoon amount.  He must have been using a strong starter i guess. 

Benito's picture
Benito

Healthy starter, in small amounts and enough time will still come out well.  Another thing though, in a pan there is more room for error than in a hearth loaf.  If you overproof or get a bit proteolytic the pan is there to prevent spreading whereas there is no where to hide with a hearth loaf.

loaflove's picture
loaflove

Thanks for the reminder about that. There were plenty of times in the past when I could have used that tip to salvage a loaf.   I'm sure I'll need to do that one day when i sleep in and over ferment.  So the definition of a hearth loaf is  bread baked in a loaf pan?  

Mariana, was very helpful in trying to explain kneading and stretch and folds to me.  Like how one doesn't replace the other.  I think I'm finally kind of understanding. Please correct me if I'm wrong.   Kneading is done to build strength which is one of the ways to do it.  But because sourdough usually requires a long fermentation time, that time in itself is another way to build strength thus kneading isn't required for SD.  And s and f's also build strength, but only do it if you want a more open crumb , because if done gently, it's incorporating air which leads to a more open crumb?  You see, I was doing them using random force and numbers at each set (sometimes doing 15 per set, sometimes 4 with varying degrees of force) , sometimes i'd be very rough , sometimes i thought ok let's be more gentle.  I'd have to say the loaves i remember being gentle with did have a more open crumb, but because those loaves happen to have chunky inclusions like raisins, walnuts, cheese etc, i thought the openness was due to the inclusions.  

Also does APF absorb more water than bread flour?  Can you please list the flours in order of water absorption?  in particular all the ones i have in my pantry dark rye, ww, apf, bread, 00. 

Another question, were you a beginner when you first joined this site?

Benito's picture
Benito

A hearth loaf is a free standing loaf, like a boule or batard for example.

I think of kneading and folds as having two different but overlapping purposes.  Kneading, like slap and folds, or machine mixing in my mind is used to help develop gluten.  Stretch and folds or coil folds also helps develop gluten but also help develop structure by organizing that gluten.  The later in bulk fermentation the folding is the more gentle it should be because the later it is the more gas has been produced in the dough.  If you’re too rough with folds late in bulk, you will degas the dough more than you probably wish.  The later you do folds in bulk as well as the more you handle the dough with pre-shaping and shaping, the more even you will make your crumb.  The less handling of the dough that is done, the more wild your crumb can be.  Think about it, if you overhandle the dough, you degas it more so it makes the crumb more even.  

Yes time also allows gluten formation, the gases created by fermentation will also help build structure within the gluten network.  But as you’ve seen I’m sure with truly no knead (no folds) breads, they won’t rise to lofty heights as that gluten isn’t organized by folds so these breads have less structure.

In terms of water absorption, in general, whole grains absorb more than white flours, higher protein more than low protein.

Yes I was a beginner when I joined about 2 years ago.

loaflove's picture
loaflove

Oh right about the definition of a hearth loaf, sorry I wasn't reading it properly. 

When you say a more even crumb is that synonymous with a tighter crumb?  i think I would like an even but open crumb if that's possible.  

So APF absorbs more water than 00 which has less protein i suppose.  I was just wondering because i want to replace the apf with 00 for my pizza dough.  

I was going on  and on like an expert explaining to my friend about no knead doughs and purpose of S and Fs and kneading and yeast, blah blah blah, but i was a bit stumped when i couldn't tell him why i was kneading my sourdough bagel dough even though it has a 8-10 hr bulk ferment, after i told him you don't typically knead sourdough bread dough. I suspect it has something to do with the low hydration of my bagel dough but I don't know what or why exactly.  Sorry , i have so many questions

Just 2 years and you're a seasoned pro even before 2 years was up.  so impressive.  I love looking at your SD crumb shots. 

Benito's picture
Benito

You can have even tight like a sandwich loaf vs even open like lacy crumb which is what my perfect crumb would be for a hearth loaf.  I’m not a fan of wild irregular really open crumb which is hard to use practically for spreads.  

I haven’t used 00 flour but yes generally lower protein flour takes less water than higher protein.  But the conditions the flour is stored will always be a factor, drier desert like conditions vs humid conditions, drier taking more water vs humid taking less.  

I found of all the bread books that I have looked at, the one that was most enlightening was Trevor Wilson’s Open Crumb Mastery.  I won’t say that I learned more from that book than anything because I think that the time I’ve spent here and actually baked is how I’d learned the most.  But as far as a book goes and learning the theory behind getting open crumb and the information I shared above about structure is from his book.  It is worth the low cost in my opinion.  

I don’t feel like a seasoned pro that’s for sure, I still have my share of bad bakes, but overall compared to last year and of course my first year, I have come a long way.  I do have more consistency now except for 100% whole grain bakes which I’ll need more practice with and more time to figure out how to do that well because currently I don’t.

loaflove's picture
loaflove

Thanks for all your help.  I'll look for that book .  BTW , i think i might have a nice ear on my loaf that's in the oven now.  not symmetrical but it's a nice flap.  

Benito's picture
Benito

Fingers crossed you’re pleased with the bake, I’m looking forward to seeing it.

Benny

loaflove's picture
loaflove

Thanks Benny!  I'm really pleased!  I think it's the gentle folding that made a diff.  i was worried at first bc the loaf looked really compact

Benito's picture
Benito

Wow, that’s spectacular.  Beautiful tall loaf, such great oven spring, wonderful clean ear, blistery crust and finally a beautiful open crumb.  Really well done you!!

Benny

loaflove's picture
loaflove

Thanks Benny, I was quite thrilled.  I forced my sister to cut the loaf as soon as she got home.  Lol . Excuse the blobs of chia seeds.  I really do like throwing  a couple of ice cubes into the DO.  But I'll probably use your method as soon as i find a spray bottle

loaflove's picture
loaflove

this loaf was 5% ww and 95% apf.  73% hydration.  but felt stiffer due to the unsoaked chia and flax seeds.  Now what if i increased it to 10% WW and increase the hydration to 75% . You think the crumb will be alot more closed?

 

Benito's picture
Benito

I usually brush water onto the dough after scoring, avoiding the scored part.  Sometimes I’ll spray a it extra into the DO.

I doubt you’ll notice much difference in crumb going from 5 to 10%.  It’s possible it might be more open, but again I doubt it would be a great difference going from 73 to 75% hydration.  I think you can switch out up to 10% of the total flour to any other flour, leaving the 90% bread flour, and not affect the crumb.