20% rye with dark beer and onion
This was inspired by dmsnyder’s miche with dark beer, although what I ended up with is not really that similar to his loaf.
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/45770/miche-made-dark-beer
I really liked the flavour of the onions in the last loaf I baked using them, so I decided to try it again and kick up the % of onion bit. Last time I baked with dark beer, I couldn’t really taste it or tell that there was beer in the bread so I notched up the beer … a lot.
Formula:
|
| Weight (g) | % |
|
|
|
|
Levain (100% hydration) |
| 150 | 43.5% |
Water |
| 280 | 81.2% |
Beer | 240 |
|
|
Water | 40 |
|
|
Flour |
| 345 | 100.0% |
white | 290 |
| 84.1% |
rye | 55 |
| 15.9% |
|
|
|
|
Dried minced onion (dry weight) |
| 12 | 3.5% |
Salt |
| 9 | 2.6% |
Total dough weight | 796 |
| |
<Including the rye flour in the levain brings up the rye to 20%>
I did my levain builds using just rye for the first build and then a combination of rye and white flour for the 2nd and third.
I mixed the flours and beer in the morning and then I had to leave the house, so that sat around for about 5 hours. I added the salt and levain and started mixing the dough. Something didn’t feel right about this dough. It was very sticky, but not sticky in the way you expect with rye flour. It’s hard to explain, it just felt weird.
I did 60 slap and folds to try and strengthen the dough and then I did 5 sets of stretch and folds (one set every 20mins). I could see bubbles forming in between the SFs, so I knew it was at least still alive. I added the rehydrated minced onion on the 3rd set.
By the time I finished the SFs, the dough was feeling better, nice and stretchy but still stickier than I would expect with only 20% rye. All I could think was it had something to dough with the extra long autolyse with the beer and the rye flour?
I left the dough for 2 hours at room temp. I pre shaped and shaped and put the dough into my basket for a 20 hour cold retard.
I wasn’t confident about this loaf, I thought my dough had degraded further in the fridge, especially since it spread a lot when I took it out of the basket. I baked the loaf at 250 dC with steam for 20mins and then for another 30mins at 230 dC (I wanted the crust to be quite dark).
The crust is great though, nice and crunchy.
The crumb came out looking a bit strange. It looks tight around the edges which makes me suspect I may have under proofed, but the big holes are making me think I may have not degassed it enough when I shaped it.
Well, anyway I’m not too worried, it tastes great. I’m glad I upped the onion it really comes through, I was worried that there would be an over powering beer taste, but there isn’t… the aroma just really complements the onion.
The crumb is very moist and soft (with a slight chewiness). I think I’m going to make this again and see if I can do a bit better.
Happy baking :)
Comments
I was just reading your post about the 20% rye with dark beer and onion bread recipe. It looks like a very unique recipe to me and sounds tasty as well. For a number of years, I was the chief engineer in very large processing factories for complex chemicals and foods. Most people don't realize that there are only a few large factories that process much of the canned and packaged foods that they buy. For example, in one of the very large sugar factories where I was the chief engineer, we packaged over 140 different labels including one of our competitors who had run out. The yellow cut rate packages held the very same sugar as the name brands. This same thing is true with salt. As the production manager of a very large factory, we packaged over 170 labels. Again, the yellow cut rate package and the name brand held the very same product. This same thing happens with canned tomato products and down the line. When you go to a Walmart store and buy their brand do you think that Walmart owns huge factories to process their brand of anything they sell? Of course they don't. Buy their brand and save money. This should hold true for canned fruits and vegitables as well as canned meats. This same logic applies to the number of companies that manufacture LED's television screens. In the day when cathode ray tube screens were the norm, as I recall, there were only 4 factories that made all of the CRT's. Today, I would guess that there are no more than 5 companies that actually manufacture the screens for all televisions. back to the food business, how many flour milling factories do you think there are in America. The better question would be, how many corporations actually mill flour. From the aforementioned, I think it's fair to say that all no name brands of flour come from a milling operation that packages many different brands. I buy my bread flour in the 25 pound sack from Sam's Club and seperate it into 1 gallon ziplock bags. I use 7 ziplocks for the 25 pounds. I feel very confident in saying that it's highly doubtful that Sam's Club mills their own flour. Another helpful bit of information is the price of sugar for example. When last I looked, the commodities price per hundred weight of sugar was around $17.00 per hundred pounds. When I was the chief engineer at one of the very large factories that produced sugar, our cost to manufacture 100 pounds was around $22.50. Since the commodities price is lower than what our cost was, it must be that The Farm Bill subsidizes the sugar industry. I've definitely drifted off topic and appologize. My recommendation for the recipe on topic is to use onion powder in place of actual onion. Since most all vegitables contain primarily water, eliminating raw onion and replacing it with onion powder will reduce the overall amount of water in the bread mixture.
What an interesting read :) I'm definitely a store brand type of person for every thing except flour. The reason being i prefer to used stoneground unbleached flour and, here in South Africa i've only come across one brand that sells that. I get better results with the brand i use now. The difference isn't monumenal but, i can tell.
Hmmm... i never thought of using onion powder. How much do you think i should use?
Thanks for the tip :)
happy baking
I would start with 2 teaspoons of onion powder and if that doesn't give you the distinctive taste your looking for then I would up it to 1 tablespoon. Another consideration while you are experimenting would be adding 1/2 cup of sour cream. As you probably know, salt enhances flavores in cooking.
Please do let me know how it comes out after the trial.
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I use onions in my breads all the time. I like to use dehydrated onions and toasted onions sometimes but I do have to say that onion powder will not have the same flavor profile as actual onions. Sure, you will have onion flavor but you will not have actual onion pieces which visually and texture wise do make a difference in the bread. Now if you caramelize the onions then you even taking it up another notch and adding a sweet taste to the bread.
i must agree with you about the ambiance of actual onion in the bread. However, you might try out using onion powder in concert with the actual onion. I truly think that you will be surprised at the outcome. As I've said, I've been working with yeast dough for over 40 years and I'm still learning. I sell certified organic spices which includes certified organic onion powder. When I'm making marinara for example, I'll use actual onions in my recipe but I also use onion powder. I do the same thing with the garlic. I am interested in your opinion after you've tried this out.
That's a long time of working with bread! Awesome! I'm only about 6 months in :)
I post all my bakes so i'll let you know how it works out.
but i read in a TFL post (can't remember which one) that the onions kind of disappear/dissolve into the loaf.
But i suppose it just depends on the degree of cooking, but to get them nice and sweet they have to be quite soft.
I love caramelized red onions so maybe i'll give it a go and see what happens.
Thanks Ian :)
but i read in a TFL post (can't remember which one) that the onions kind of disappear/dissolve into the loaf.
But i suppose it just depends on the degree of cooking, but to get them nice and sweet they have to be quite soft.
I love caramelized red onions so maybe i'll give it a go and see what happens.
Thanks Ian :)
inside and out. I don't think I would change a thing for a lite rye bread but would get the rue up to 40% for a deli rye. Very well done. indeed. Great bloom spring and crumb with this one - love the bold bake too;! Now you need some of Lucy's smoked brisket we finished up last night a midnight.
Having ribs, sausage and brisket for dinner today - Could use some of that bread of your for t since smoked meats are served with white bread and this is as white a bread as we usually get:-)
Happy Baking 007
Thanks Dab!
I basically tried to follow the basic structure of dmsnder's harpoon miche recipe (which was 80% white flour), but i think you're right, rye makes things better. Next time i will up the the rye. I think i really liked the 40% rye i made last time, so if i can put that together with the higher % of onions and beer... jack pot!
Or maybe i should try making subbing out some white flour for whole grain?
Hmmm... I'm going to have to go through your blog index and see if i can find some whole grain/onion/beer recipes :)
Ooooh, sounds like a feast for dinner! Make sure there's a good salad to go with it :)
I'm going to have a slice with some nice Camembert tomorrow, one of my favorite cheeses.
Glad you like the post :)
Happy baking to you too Dab!
Sounds like a wonderfully fragrant and tasty combination! The loaf certainly looks lovely, but as you say, the crumb is a bit strange (though it looks nice and moist). What do you think you might change? I know when I make my beer bread the beer is in the poolish, but I don't see how that could be different from putting it in the autolyse (although mine isn't with rye flour).
So many different factors make differences in bread. It's wonderful and frustrating all at the same time!
The crumb has a very nice mouth feel, soft and moist, it just looks funny, that's what's so vexing! LOL!
I'm not sure what i'll change, i might lower the hydration. Or maybe i'll leave it out to bulk ferment for another hour before i put it in the fridge. Who knows! I'm winging it most of the time anyway, but that's the fun of it!
Happy baking!
I am not a beer fan but its nuanced personality in breads shines well and together with rye and onions, it is a flavor bomb!
Great looking loaf too! The green trees in the background looks like you're in a lovely garden ready to have a picnic!
Happy baking!
but i find the flavour when baked in a loaf to not be so "beery", its just very complimentary to the other flavours.
Thanks for the compliment! Can't wait to see you first SD loaf :)
Happy baking Pal :)
Nice bake! You may want to cut the liquid down slightly since the onions do give off some moisture.
Here is a one of my favorite rye breads that you may want to try and see if you like it:
https://mookielovesbread.wordpress.com/2012/12/10/onion-sourdough-yeast-water-onion-rye-ale-bread/
If you don't have a Yeast Water starter you can omit it and build up the rye starter with the same amount of flour and water as was in the YW starter.
Regards,
Ian
what gave me the confidence to add the onions!
The loaf was just going to be a beer loaf, based on dmsnyders recipe and i thought about adding onions (just because i liked the taste). But i didn't know if onions and beer was actually a thing, but when i came across your TFL post, i decided to do it... Its a beautiful loaf by the way.
Thanks for the tip about replacing the YW with rye starter, i think that's probably what i'll do. I haven't ventured into YW yet!
And thank you for the compliment, much appreciated :)
Ru
Sounds like your having fun in the kitchen. I've got a book that I've had for many years named "Bernard Clayton's New Complete Book of Breads" that is certainly not new anymore. However, you might be able to find it online like most recipes today. The details in many recipes fall short of what really makes them work. I've got a recipe I've posted about how to make Amish white bread. I spent a great deal of time editing this recipe so that the reader could get an outstanding outcome right out of the gate. I'm not sure which website or websites I posted this recipe on but I do think that the final draft is full of details. One of the things that the Good Lord taught me was how to finish the lump prior to its second rise in the loaf pan. Quickly, after you have kneaded the dough after its first rise, roll the dough between your hands allowing one end to sag. Reverse the ends and do the same thing until the dough fits nicely into the loaf pan. Make sure that you have greased the loaf pan adequately then wipe with a paper towel any excess. Using your fingertips, push the dough down so it's uniform in the pan then spray enough water on top so that you can smooth the top and form a nice crown. This simple suggestion can make your loaves look like the cover of a bread magazine. Hope this helps.
Maybe next to moules-frites, the national dish of Belgium is Carbonnade. That is a beef stew with tons of onions and beer. They definitely go together.
You got lots of interesting suggestions. I think each of the suggested onion preparations will give you a different flavor. If you want to, you could try each of them and report. You will learn more about onions than you ever wanted to know! LOL
I think your strangely sticky dough is most likely from some protein degradation with the very long autolyse.
I have no idea what effect beer has on amylase and protease activity, but I wonder. The alcohol must have some effect - probably not beneficial. And the CO2 would change the pH, I expect. Need a food chemist's input here.
Happy baking!
David
I tried to not mangle your lovely recipe too much! LOL!
I also think the stcky dough was due to the combination of the long autolyse with rye flour (which i know can can degrade dough because of the amylase and the fact that it sat in a lot of beer. I'll try and read up about it and see what i find!
Thanks for the compliment :)
Happy baking.
Ru
After reading the post by dmsnyder, it brought back to memory an article I read very recently about sweet onions. I'm not sure about Ru077's access to various onions in South Africa but the article I read about sweet onions here in America dealt with the seasons and histories of both the walla walla and Vidalia onions. When I here vidalia it invokes sweet onions to mind. However, the walla walla is the sweeter of the two. Ru077's idea about caramelizing her onions sounds like a good idea. When I'm making pizza, I do on occasion caramalize the onion. What I've found is that I use more onion when so doing. I always microwave my onions for pizza but when I caramelize it seems that adding an extra onion tastes better.
All-purpose flour is made from a blend of high- and low-gluten wheats, and has a bit less protein than bread flour — 11% or 12% vs. 13% or 14%. You can always substitute all-purpose flour for bread flour, although your results may not be as glorious as you had hoped. There are many recipes, however, where the use of bread flour in place of all-purpose will produce a tough, chewy, disappointing result. Cakes, for instance, are often made with all-purpose flour, but would not be nearly as good made with bread flour.