Hi, BH.

My skillet is usually dry when I remove it. I suppose I do so for two reasons: First, I don't know it's dry until I remove it. Second, the process of removing it, in effect, "vents" the oven to let out the humid air so the rest of the bake is in a drier oven.

David

I hypothesized that the lower protein flour promoted the crackly crust after watching some of Shiao-Ping's bakes. I think I also read somewhere that higher protein flour results in more crunchy, chewy crust and lower protein promotes crisper crust.

If you do try the new formula, let us see your results.

David

"Perfection" is an ever receding goal. I think I will continue to fiddle with the formula.

David

David

David

The flavor was outstanding. I changed enough variables so I can't say which contributed the most to the flavor. I suspect the increased amount of starter and the omission of the yeast played the largest role. 

The sourness was really mild with no distinctive "San Francisco Sourdough" flavor, so I would be hesitant to attribute much to the starter difference.

It seems to me that, when I used Wood's SF SD starter before, it took a month to develop its distinctive characteristics. Meanwhile, it's making very good breads.

David

I have a firm starter refreshing and plan on making another batch of SJ SD tomorrow, if I can squeeze it in before I have to leave for a concert.

I'm looking forward to hearing how the modified formula works for you. I know you have a lot of experience with the "old" version.

BTW, you have been honored by being the first to get a TFL reply sent from my new 27" iMac. 

David

Thanks, Susan!

And thanks for including it in this Yeast Spotting. 

I did make this version again, and it had the same great flavor. The additional stretch and folds on the bench have resulted in a much chewier crumb, too. 

David

Hi David,

Thanks for your interesting reply!

I absolutely agree with you. I'm getting more and more convinced that the authentic SF SD (which I've never had the privilege of tasting...yet) is a result of getting the right lactobacilli and yeast in the sourdough, and not of deliberately starving the sourdough the get "sourness". Reading the SD FAQ, there's been research showing that using more than 50% inoculation gives you a very acidic sourdough, where there is no trace of lact. sanfransisco. Since lact. sanfransisco is essential in SF SD, that observation rules out deliberate malnourishment (it sounds terrible, doesn't it?) of the culture to get sour taste.

In the same FAQ, it's stated that it usually takes at least two weeks of repeated feedings (at room temp.) to get a good "SF SD" culture. I think this also agrees with what you've written earlier: That the true SF taste takes a while to obtain, and that the tangy flavour was something you obtained a few weeks after you started the culture. A couple of feedings at room temp. before using the sourdough to bake breads would probably help get lact. sanfransisco a good foothold as well.

I'd be very interested in learning more about your ongoing experiment, so keep us updated David!

The starter is one i've been using for few months now, that i started myself. I've been using 1:1 water to flour ratio by volume, and I recently figured out that it's about 169% hydration. I usually keep it in the fridge and scoop out the amount i need for the dough and after a while replenish the starter. Maybe i'm doing it all wrong? The starter always smells good and is bubbly an hour or so after feeding it if left at room temp., or a day or so later if left in the fridge. I feed it about once a week if it's been in the fridge, or after I use a good portion of it. (Not too scientific I know, but it's been alive and works for Leader/Basil's pain au levain recipe really well.)

But in addition to the starter, I also added instant yeast, at about the same ratio as for the Bouabsa baguette recipe. Do you think the holes on the bottom mean anything?

So maybe what i should do is to mix a poolish from the very wet starter, and then use that in the final dough? I plan to maintain a drier starter after I get a more accurate scale.

by the way, i moved the original question post to here: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/14409/flat-baguettes-holes-bottom

Hi David, i went back and read your instructions for the San Joaquin loaf more carefully, and realized that you had mentioned that you gave the dough about an hour of bulk fermentation after the kneading (folds) but before the dough went into the fridge. I totally skipped that part. this could explain why i usually don't get much rise at all in the fridge.

and also there is no more folds/kneading after the cold rise. i think a combination of me kneading the dough after the cold rise and using too much wet starter must've been the cause for my flat loaves. but i also wonder if i should've developed the gluten more. i would say the final dough seems stretchy enough and is pretty chewy after baking. but maybe more gluten would stop some of the holes in the bottom?

anyways, thanks again for all the inspiring loaves and info! i have much more to experiment with.

Hi, Michelle.

I'm so glad you are enjoying your San Joaquin Sourdough!

To answer your question: You have to know the history behind this bread. In summary, during the 1970's and 1980's, a group of younger French boulangers rebelled against the industrial baguettes that had been replacing the traditional baguettes in France since WW II. Presumably influenced by the teaching of Prof. Raymond Calvel, who emphasized the importance of a long slow fermentation to develop the flavor of bread, they introduced a cold retardation stage during bulk fermentation (before the dough is divided and shaped).

In 2008, a young Parisian boulanger named Anis Bouabsa won the annual award for the best baguette in Paris using this procedure. Janedo, a French home baker (born and raised in Vancouver, BC, for your interest) and member of TFL visited Bouabsa's boulangerie and learned about his method, which she then shared with us here.

Over the ensuing months, a number of us made baguettes using Bouabsa's formula. Jane and I began fiddling with it - adding some rye flour and some levain, and, eventually, leaving out the commercial yeast altogether. Then I started using this dough to make bâtards and, occasionally, boules. Thus, the San Joaquin Sourdough was born.

So, cold retardation can be implemented either during bulk fermentation or during proofing. The effects on flavor are similar but possibly not identical. The effects on dough handling are different. As you may have noticed, the dough retarded in bulk is much more extensible during shaping, for instance. This may be especially advantageous when forming baguettes. It may be less desirable when forming boules. 

In addition, the two methods have different implications for scheduling your bread production. The method I use in the San Joaquin Sourdough works well for me when I want to mix the dough one evening and bake the next morning.

If you can get a copy of Suas' "Advanced Bread and Pastry," you can read a detailed analysis of both types of retardation.

I hope this isn't TMI for you. Again, I'm delighted you are enjoying the bread.

Happy baking!

David

Hi, Nick/

Your starter ingredients look correct to make a starter of the consistancy I use out of a 100% hydration starter.

I don't have sufficient data to determine whether you are crazy about anything else, but you are not crazy regarding your starter.

Happy baking!

David

I'm a big fan of the San Joaquin as well! for my last batch I made a firm starter by using 80g of 100% hyd. starter with 20g of flour, to end up with 100g of 67% hydration starter that goes into a dough with 500g of total flour (not counting what's in the starter). i liked the batch so much that I took some photos (see below).

The loaves looked pretty good but I also did add 1/4 tsp of active dry yeast. Does any one know how mixing a high ratio of 100% starter with just flour and no additional water would differ from mixing smaller amount of starter with some water and flour?

Obviously one method uses more starter, but I wonder how different the flavors would be. I guess I can always try it out. I'm curious because many of the sourdough recipes I've seen involves mixing starter, water and flour instead of just starter and flour to achieve a firm(er) starter for the final dough.

so making the stiff starter is also a feeding, and the goal is to get it to the right hydration with about twice the flour as in the seed starter? that makes sense. in the pain au levain recipe i use the levain is mixed with just starter and flour, but the added flour comes out to be just 1/2 the weight of the 100% starter... (light bulb flashing next to my head!)

i'll definitely try that on the next loaf, and skip the commercial yeast. the pain au levain i make definite do not need any additional yeast and rises just fine from my starter.

the baguettes taste great! nice cruchy crust (when still hot or reheated), with very tender and chewy crumb. only slightly sour but really more sweet to me. also i get a very wheaty flavor from the flour i use (giusto's organic AP flour from a bulk food store here). the AP flour is labeled as having 11.5% protein, which seems pretty high to me. I use it when recipes call for bread flour and it all comes out fine. maybe i'll try using it for bagels next time.

will

But you don't have to yell. (Using all caps).

I've corrected the typo. Must have written too many prescriptions that day.

David

Hi Boboshempy,

Well, your bread certainly looks superb!

It's true, as David says, that ideal salt content is down to individual taste, but I reduced the salt to 6gm when I baked this lovely bread, and the flavour was up there with the best I've baked. It's always worth trying adjustments such as David's suggestion to increase the salt, but in view of my result, I suspect the lack of flavour to be due to other factors. No idea what, though, especially if you've been baking other breads with the same flour and have not had an issue with flavour until now.

And like David, I had no 'gumminess' of the crumb with this one. Good odds that's related to baking time, I reckon.

Interested in the outcome if you do make adjustments and try this bread again. It's one of my favourites.

Ahhhh ... Sir Lancelot is going to change things a lot. The dough will act like it has lower hydration. The crust will be thicker. The crumb will be chewier.

High gluten flour is great for bagels and breads with a predominance of low gluten flours, like ryes. It can help breads with lots of stuff that cuts gluten fibers like bran and seeds. But it is generally not recommended for the SJ SD.

David

Hi, Joe.

I've never tried it. It is more coarsely ground and might result in a denser crumb. Try it and let us know.

David

Hi, Azaelia.

The refrigeration does slow down the yeast. I find that how much the dough expands depends on it's temperature and how active the fermentation was when the dough was put in the fridge.

In any case, if you follow the directions, you should end up with good bread. The dough not expanding in the fridge is not necessarily a problem.

David

depending on how active your 17g of starter was, it could take a while for the yeast to multiply enough to work on the 85g of flour.

after few batches of this dough i realized that i always had a tendency to underproof the dough, which gave me pretty tasty but very dense bread in the end. i finally learned to let the dough rise enough in room temp before cold restarding it, or give it more time in the fridge if it doesn't feel light and bubbly enough to me. i've had dough that sat in the fridge for 2 days, maybe 3 days and still came out great. come to think of it i've never overproofed a batch yet.

the only time i see that happens is when i make a stiff starter for a pain au levain bread, where i would use a pretty high ratio of starter to flour, and after 6-8 hours the stiff starter overproofs and turns into soft, squishy dough. but it just basically becomes a bigger mass of starter and when i add it to the main dough it works great.

in any case, my point is that it would take a lot of starter to overproof dough, so if it doesn't feel bubbly i would just let it go longer, either in the fridge or at room temp before you bake it. good luck!

The dough is sticky. Lightly flouring your hands while shaping helps. Do your shaping in a way that your hands are in the briefest possible contact with the dough for each step.

This bread needs support while proofing. For long loves, I use a couch - either linen or parchment paper. (For the later, you don't take the loaves off the paper for baking. For boules, use a banneton. These keep the shaped loaves from spreading too much.

David

hi ross, I use parchment paper for all my high hydration doughs (>60%) since I don't have a couche nor bread peel. all I do is cut out pieces of the paper about twice to three times the width of the shaped loaves, dust them with flour, and plop each loaf in the middle of the paper. then you can push the sides of the paper up against the sides of the loaf. you can oil the sides of the paper so they don't stick to the dough, or just bake it and it'll come off after few minutes in the oven.

in any case, once the dough is on the parchment paper you can push one loaf up against each other which will support them while they rise. you can use rolled up towels or cans to stop the loaves at the ends from sliding.

I slide the loaves into the oven on the parchment paper, but I usually take out the paper when I rotate the loaves (about 10 min in). at this point the loaves should come right off of the paper. I also reuse the paper few more times until it falls apart.

btw, with a dough this wet I usually uncover the dough about 20 minutes before baking so the dough's not too wet before I score it. the dough will not dry out that much in that time at all.

have fun with your next batch!

will

For two loaves, I cut the parchment to fit my peel. I fold it in the middle and place it on the peel with the middle crease pointing up and forming a "wall" at least as high as I expect the loaves to rise. This separates the loaves and provides lateral support for their facing sides. I place the loaves to either side of the crease. I dust the loaves with flour to keep them from sticking to the paper. Then, the outside edges of the paper and lifted, and a rolled up dish towel is placed up against these margins to support the outside of the loaves. Then the whole business is covered with plasti-crap or another towel.

When the loaves are proofed, I remove the towels and pull the edges of the paper outward. This collapses the center crease and pulls the loaves apart, leaving 3-4 inches between them. I bake with loaves on the parchment paper.

I hope this is clear.

David